![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
You know, I used to be kind of a feminist asshole.
Once, I thought the only true living feminists were Christina Hoff Summers and Camille Paglia. Once I belonged to a LJ community called "female misogyny," which professed to be just a place for those against mainstream feminism to meet but eventually ... wasn't. Or probably wasn't all along. I tended to latch onto the stuff I agreed with ("Who cares if Paglia says men can't help rape women because they're so sexy? Women being sexually dominant is cool!"), accepted without question dismissal of theorists I'd never read ("They say Dworkin is bad so she MUST be"), and ignored when they were lumped in with Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.
And then I ... actually took a feminism class.
Sometimes I look back on my old opinions with a sad sigh. A sigh which has grown even louder when I've seen how outright awful some of the misogyny and bigotry in the world can be. "Why?" I told myself. "Why did I ever think that way? Why did I accept those women's masculine worship disguised as feminism? WHY?"
And then yesterday I read this:
Zoe, of course, is meant to be our empowered, ass-kicking sidechick. Like all sidechicks she is objectified from the get go. Her husband, Wash, talking about how he likes to watch her bathe. Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour. I have known a black woman whose white husband would strangle and bash her while her young children watched. My white grandfather liked black women because they were ‘exotic’, and he did not, could not treat women, especially women of colour, like human beings. I grew up watching my great aunts, my aunty and my mother all treated like shit by their white husbands, the men they loved. So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession.
Because he likes to wash her bathe. His wife. Bathing. Doesn't even seem like it's in a voyeuristic manner. Still rape. Bathing.
Here's more.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Joss uses his own wife in this way. Expects her to clean up his emotional messes. Expects her to be there, eternally supportive, eternally subservient and grateful to him in all his manly glory. I hope the money is worth it, Mrs. Whedon. But somehow I doubt that it is. No amount of money can buy back wasted emotional resources.
And more.
I feel awful for Joss Whedon's wife. From what I've read about him and the interviews I've watched, I'm fairly certain that he rapes his wife and abuses her in various other ways. I honestly can't think of anything worse than living with a man like Joss who thinks of women like the way he portrays in his tv shows. How awful. The comment about the money was meant to be about how I personally could see no benefit from being with a man like Joss OTHER than money. Joss uses and abuses her. Probably rapes her and thinks of women as whores etc, etc. Obviously, Ms Whedon has her own reasons for staying. Fear, patriarchal concepts of love, etc. But I would argue that she gives everything and gets nothing. Money is the only concrete thing that she could possibly gain. But as I said money is worth nothing compared with self-integrity, self-esteem, love (sister/lesbian/gynaffectionate love) etc. So she still loses out. Poor woman.
And more.
I believe in the radical feminist definition of rape. That is that men who pressure women into sex are rapists. That women who are pressured are not freely consenting and are therefore being raped. There have been a few discussions recently in the rad fem blogosphere debating whether all male initiated sex is rape, given that women are politically, socially and economically subordinate to men. So, in my understanding of Joss Whedon as a rapist is hinges on my definition of rape. I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape.
So, I think Joss Whedon is a rapist because it is impossible for me to believe that a man who produces a show like Firefly, a man who openly objectifies women in his interviews, a man who based the character of Xander Harris (a pro-porn, sex-obsessed teenage male in Buffy) it is imposible for me to believe that this man does not pressure his wife for sex. If he has pressured his wife for sex even if she eventually consented [emphasis in the original] he is still a rapist. I know far too many women who have been, and are being, forced, coerced, manipulated, pressured into sex that they do not want with their male partners. I'd bet anything that Joss is one of these men. And if he is then he is a rapist in my books.
Male-initiated sex is rape, huh?
How very interesting. Do you know what I think rape is?
And now why I fell into the Paglia/Summers bullshit suddenly becomes clear ... offensive garbage masquerading as social justice like this was staring me in the face.
I feel sorry for the problems in her family, for certain. But I still think views like these are absolutely abominable. I doubt she'll see this, but in case she does, I'll offer up my own story.
There have been two people I've had sexual contact with. One was a black girl. One has been a white male. Without getting into details, the black girl pressured me into "pretending to have sex" with her. She told me she sought me out of our classmates because she knew I wouldn't say anything and said she would be really disappointed in me if I didn't. I said "yes" but I don't feel I really consented.
The white male pursued me through flirting and other means. Eventually (after I realized he meant the things he said) I started returning them. I actually initiated the first sexual contact. After that it's been, and continues to be, a trade-off.
I wouldn't call either situation rape, but I know which one comes a hell of a lot closer.
Once, I thought the only true living feminists were Christina Hoff Summers and Camille Paglia. Once I belonged to a LJ community called "female misogyny," which professed to be just a place for those against mainstream feminism to meet but eventually ... wasn't. Or probably wasn't all along. I tended to latch onto the stuff I agreed with ("Who cares if Paglia says men can't help rape women because they're so sexy? Women being sexually dominant is cool!"), accepted without question dismissal of theorists I'd never read ("They say Dworkin is bad so she MUST be"), and ignored when they were lumped in with Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.
And then I ... actually took a feminism class.
Sometimes I look back on my old opinions with a sad sigh. A sigh which has grown even louder when I've seen how outright awful some of the misogyny and bigotry in the world can be. "Why?" I told myself. "Why did I ever think that way? Why did I accept those women's masculine worship disguised as feminism? WHY?"
And then yesterday I read this:
Zoe, of course, is meant to be our empowered, ass-kicking sidechick. Like all sidechicks she is objectified from the get go. Her husband, Wash, talking about how he likes to watch her bathe. Let me just say now that I have never personally known of a healthy relationship between a white man and a woman of colour. I have known a black woman whose white husband would strangle and bash her while her young children watched. My white grandfather liked black women because they were ‘exotic’, and he did not, could not treat women, especially women of colour, like human beings. I grew up watching my great aunts, my aunty and my mother all treated like shit by their white husbands, the men they loved. So you will forgive me for believing that the character, Wash, is a rapist and an abuser, particularly considering that he treats Zoe like an object and possession.
Because he likes to wash her bathe. His wife. Bathing. Doesn't even seem like it's in a voyeuristic manner. Still rape. Bathing.
Here's more.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Joss uses his own wife in this way. Expects her to clean up his emotional messes. Expects her to be there, eternally supportive, eternally subservient and grateful to him in all his manly glory. I hope the money is worth it, Mrs. Whedon. But somehow I doubt that it is. No amount of money can buy back wasted emotional resources.
And more.
I feel awful for Joss Whedon's wife. From what I've read about him and the interviews I've watched, I'm fairly certain that he rapes his wife and abuses her in various other ways. I honestly can't think of anything worse than living with a man like Joss who thinks of women like the way he portrays in his tv shows. How awful. The comment about the money was meant to be about how I personally could see no benefit from being with a man like Joss OTHER than money. Joss uses and abuses her. Probably rapes her and thinks of women as whores etc, etc. Obviously, Ms Whedon has her own reasons for staying. Fear, patriarchal concepts of love, etc. But I would argue that she gives everything and gets nothing. Money is the only concrete thing that she could possibly gain. But as I said money is worth nothing compared with self-integrity, self-esteem, love (sister/lesbian/gynaffectionate love) etc. So she still loses out. Poor woman.
And more.
I believe in the radical feminist definition of rape. That is that men who pressure women into sex are rapists. That women who are pressured are not freely consenting and are therefore being raped. There have been a few discussions recently in the rad fem blogosphere debating whether all male initiated sex is rape, given that women are politically, socially and economically subordinate to men. So, in my understanding of Joss Whedon as a rapist is hinges on my definition of rape. I would argue that most 'sex' between men and women, in the contemporary 'sex-positive', pornographic, male-supremacist culture, is rape.
So, I think Joss Whedon is a rapist because it is impossible for me to believe that a man who produces a show like Firefly, a man who openly objectifies women in his interviews, a man who based the character of Xander Harris (a pro-porn, sex-obsessed teenage male in Buffy) it is imposible for me to believe that this man does not pressure his wife for sex. If he has pressured his wife for sex even if she eventually consented [emphasis in the original] he is still a rapist. I know far too many women who have been, and are being, forced, coerced, manipulated, pressured into sex that they do not want with their male partners. I'd bet anything that Joss is one of these men. And if he is then he is a rapist in my books.
Male-initiated sex is rape, huh?
How very interesting. Do you know what I think rape is?
RAPE
And now why I fell into the Paglia/Summers bullshit suddenly becomes clear ... offensive garbage masquerading as social justice like this was staring me in the face.
I feel sorry for the problems in her family, for certain. But I still think views like these are absolutely abominable. I doubt she'll see this, but in case she does, I'll offer up my own story.
There have been two people I've had sexual contact with. One was a black girl. One has been a white male. Without getting into details, the black girl pressured me into "pretending to have sex" with her. She told me she sought me out of our classmates because she knew I wouldn't say anything and said she would be really disappointed in me if I didn't. I said "yes" but I don't feel I really consented.
The white male pursued me through flirting and other means. Eventually (after I realized he meant the things he said) I started returning them. I actually initiated the first sexual contact. After that it's been, and continues to be, a trade-off.
I wouldn't call either situation rape, but I know which one comes a hell of a lot closer.
Tags:
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
From:
no subject
I find it harder to feel for someone no matter what they've been through when it seems like they're using it as an excuse to spout bullshit. Don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for her family problems also, but "Joss is a rapist because he has a white guy watching a black girl bathe!!!!! I know this cause I watched generations of white men hit black girls!!!" makes me automatically refuse to take her argument seriously.
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
But I made a comment on her LJ blog yesterday offering up myself as an example of a woman who's a feminist and is pro-legalized prostitution and I can't even see my screened comment anymore. However, I *can* see two comment-replies I've made to other posters that are still screened.
And any way to have a solid discourse with her on her regular blog will probably be met with the same kind of moderation and censorship. And that's the other part of why I feel so steamed/sad about this.
From:
no subject
I think she has some VERY backwards ideas about sex, if she thinks most M/F sex is rape. That's just a despicable statement. I also think it's funny she brings up the character Xander-- who definitely does not 'wear the pants' in his fictional relationships. XD
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
I don't see where she's argued that because politically men have more power than women and therefore most sex between men and women could be argued to be rape, she's said "and therefore women can't rape each other". I haven't read the whole thing, mind you, just the bits you picked out.
From:
no subject
Anyway, I agree that rape or abuse can happen in relationships, but I don't agree that pressure and initiation are the same thing. I think men can approach women for sex and it won't be rape so long as both parties have the option to say "no" or "stop," and that's something I've always had in my relationship.
I guess my last point may have been a little unfair. I used it because I was frustrated with how she was implying that her (admittedly horrible) experience with biracial heterosexual relationships was the truth for all biracial heterosexual relationships. And then she went further at another point by saying there has been no truly equal female/male relationship other than Andrea Dworkin and John Stolberg, and that there's no true love for women besides female/female and women should make the choice to be lesbian, etc. That's not my reality; for me my reality has been the opposite. But I wouldn't try to tell her that she shouldn't be a lesbian because of my bad experience, and I feel like that's what she's doing to others, or at least to Joss Whedon and Kai Cole. Her deleting or screening posts which disagree with her (even respectfully) I think shows that.
From:
no subject
I would never tell you or other heterosexual women that you're wrong to be straight, although from a personal perspective, I don't get it... but that'd be why/because I'm not :D I can sympathise with the political arguments for choosing lesbianism, without wanting to enforce them en masse. It annoys me when I see lesbian theorists telling me I get lesbianism all wrong, so believe me, I know how that goes :)
I didn't mean to cause offence or upset you by replying and disagreeing with you, and Lindley told me about your email. I am not upset, I think it's an interesting discussion and I hope I didn't upset you with my responses :)
From:
no subject
I have to admit I usually don't agree with most complaints about Whedon ... but then again I'm one of those mutants who liked most of Buffy season six (although for personal, not feminist, reasons and I thought "magic is a metaphor for heroin" was really, really, really, really stupid). So as for how he treats the women in his life ... for me it would depend on the criticism and if the reflection comes from a character I see coded as acting well or being stupid.
I kind of see lesbian separatism/political lesbianism like vegetarianism. It's cool if you want to do it, but let me have my steak.
And I wasn't offended by anything you said. (Lindley told me you were worried about that, too. And that we were cute.) When I saw your post I was actually most worried that I had upset you because ... well, I really DO want to grow out of my Paglia/Sommers-soaked past and be a better person. :( And I like you and feminism is always very personal and sensitive and passionate, so ... I guess it's natural to worry if we hurt each other's feelings about this stuff. :)