I could go long and drawn out ...

[quietprofanity]

But this is probably going out into the ether, so I'll be brief.

1.) For all this bullshit whining about how bad anger is and how it's hurting the feminist comics fan's cause. You know, I'm not much of an angry person ... Well, I kind of am. But I'm also a sensitive woobie and so then I get upset about it later. Anyway, I try to spread my anger where it's needed. I think I give creators a lot of leeway. ("High heels? Well, her powers ARE magic-based -- it's not like she HAS to run." This may be how I was able to watch Sailor Moon.)

So ... yeah, not extremely angry. I haven't gotten really mad over anything that happened this year except for the Mary-Jane-killed-by-semen subplot and I didn't really blog about it extensively. In fact, when I was first discovering WFA, I thought Karen Healey was overbearing. And I outright got in a fight with Valerie D'Orazio under my old name (and hers).

Now I read their blogs every day. What kept me coming back? Well, I kept coming back to Karen's blog because she was pretty insightful and witty, had really good recommendations for when she DID like something. And Valerie ... well, she makes me laugh (and in the good way, too). Usually don't agree with her still, but her insights are unique. And "Good-bye to Comics", obviously.

But yeah ... anger wasn't quite the deterrent in either situation. Yes, I'm not a creator and maybe since I was a feminist I was inclined to listen to them on one degree or another anyway. But hey, all those creators claim to like women and also, I think they blame it on anger, but I don't think they really listen to female fans much to begin with. Or maybe you really think Marvel would have pulled the Mary Jane statue or DC would have given Steph a Robin case if everyone just ASKED NICELY. Would you like to try?

2.) Why is everyone fighting with the SAME DAMN PEOPLE again and again?

---

And now that I have your attention ... can you think of any cartoon characters that don't have any physical attributes of a certain race but act like a certain race (or stereotypes of one). I'm thinking of Frylock (played by a black man) and Coach Z here. Got any others?

I just want to know your "thoughts on [blank]" regarding this. Seriously.

Comments

[papajoemambo.livejournal.com]

All I'm coming up with are Lucky, the Lucky Charms cereal mascot (seriously, not all Irish are red-headed...); Roger The Alien in American Dad (who acts like a middle-American flaming gay and sounds like Paul Lynde) and Dr Zoidberg, who is a lobster creature who sounds like "America's Toastmaster" and well-loved borscht-belt comedian Georgie Jessel.

I hear your anger and I nod. Everyone fights with the same damn people because, whether they change their names or not, they're all still the same people.

[quietprofanity.livejournal.com]

I'm always reluctant to label a cartoon character who acts camp/flaming/queen-like to to be "gay" (for canon purposes, not slash) because eventually the text will seem to go out of the way to establish that they are not. I'm thinking of a recent Alvin and the Chipmunks straight-to-video movie where they had a camp stereotype drama teacher and at the very last second threw him together with the dowdy schoolmarm. It's a really weird mentality but seems to have stayed intact. I think that's why Dumbledore being gay was still sort of a shock. There were subtextual hints, sure, but we're so used to the pink being made blue ... or whatever.

[sigh] I respect what Ragnell and Kalinara do ... and I get why they feel they need "all sides of the debate" in the issue. But I don't really like how it ends up with the same five or so people who are never going to see eye to eye just going on the merry-go-round again and again and again. The fact that two of the people on the anti-feminist side who get a big chunk of attention are probably sockpuppets is another factor.

[papajoemambo.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that Roger crossdresses and mimics what he perceives to be universally accepted forms of human behavior based on the work of Paul Lynde might be more accurate, you're right. I was more indicating that Roger was an alien who acts like a specific subsection of humanity, but that's kind of obvious isn't it? So I guess that's not really one who counts. Zoidberg's like that too - although when you meet other members of his race they all sound like borscht-belt comedians, and not just George Jessel.

The sock-puppet factor is something that just muddles and confuses me out here. It just seems like a licence to lie to me, or something like that.

I mean, I understand the neccessity some people feel to have an oinline persona that's different from their own, and how empowering that can be for someone who doesn't feel they usually have much of a voice. I see it as being extra-empowering to come into your own as a version of yourself online that is very similar to who you actually are. I've worked hard at keeping my online persona somewhat-more-or-less a cartoonishly simplified version of how I am in real life. Anyone who knows me offline knows that I may respond outwardly differently when I'm offline, but if they've read my stuff online they usually know what's going on in my head at all times. Sockpuppets, as a means of fluffing yourself or your point of view up, just seem like so much work wasted when the time spent could be better used to actually make something other than a transparent means of congratulating yourself. I think it would be better used, anyway.

I dunno, I "get it", I think, but I don't like what it says about people, I guess.

And now by talking too much about something that really only is something of little importance to anyone, really, is how I show you what I'm like when I'm *not* online. "Pappy" (aka Online Joe) is usually a lot more concise than I am in-the-meat-ternet. :P

[quietprofanity.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I got that. And it's good to bring it up. I'm trying to get a dialogue flowing about the issue here, not play minority bingo or anything. :-)

I think some people kinda like being jerks. I was surprised to find someone in my family actually likes trolling the Internet. Her explanation: "It's great! People think I'm really funny!" I'm like ... "Um, okay."

I don't know how much I can add to that topic, as I've been told Internet-self is not very much like real-life self. But I don't try to lie or anything ... I do think I act differently depending on the "mood" of a place or how well I know the person. (My Dad will do this stuff all the time.) But I just think I'm showing certain aspects of myself more, not always trying to hide others, if that makes any sense.

[papajoemambo.livejournal.com]

It does, and I'm not exactly the way I am offline when I'm on - I was thinking more of the people who devellop incredibly rich, detailed backstories about themselves only to disappoint all of their online friends when they realise that most of it was utter bullpucky.

I understand that I'm different with different people when I have the time to think about what I'm saying to them. I'm always concerned that if I *do* come across as a better person online, that I'm liable to disappoint the ones who do meet me, eventually.

[47nite.livejournal.com]

Yeugh, I wonder how you would feel taking my Character I class. ^^; "Um, your Alice (as in Wonderland) design is looking okay, but she looks too much like a boy. You should try to emphasize her lips and eyes* more and deemphasize her nose."

Me: =___=

(*at least they didn't say eyelashes. OHO ^^;;)


Cartoons that act like a certain race ethnicity?

Well Bubs is waaaay more black than Coach Z will ever be. XD Strong Bad is hinted at being Mexican but never confirmed or denied.

As far as other stereotypes, I remember reading many of these on Cartoon Overanalyziations way back when I first discovered the Net. They mostly discussed "golden age" cartoons (the classic was the crows in Dumbo being African American caricatures and Bugs Bunny having Jewish tendencies.)

The weird thing is now that we have A) openness and B) employment for minorities in cartooning, suddenly there isn't a high demand for seemingly nondescript cartoons (but instead obvious representations of minorities in animated form, with no subterfuge). Still, alternative-style shows geared towards the mature crowds love nothing more than to play up the stereotypes (since we're "all in on the joke", y'seee...)

Oh, I do remember Titan A.E. (boy I love hating on that movie XD). Main human characters were either white or hot Asian chick while the alien characters exhibited distinct habits and accents (e.g. old black man, sneering Hispanic, nebbish Asian/Jewish-type).

For whatever reason I'm suddenly way eager to go back and watch a number of Japanese cartoons of the late 80s early 90s; for some reason they were a little more open-minded then than now (e.g. Nadia, being a main character)

[quietprofanity.livejournal.com]

Did you end up reading my little mini-review on "Good-bye Chunky Rice"? I think you may find it interesting.

Yeah, ethnicity is probably the better word.

Well Bubs is waaaay more black than Coach Z will ever be. XD Strong Bad is hinted at being Mexican but never confirmed or denied.

I think I was reluctant to point out Bubs because sometimes he just seems to be "old guy" but ... yeah, you're probably right. And he doesn't have Coach Z's "Essence of Poser" stink, either. I'm not sure on Strong Bad, though, given that he has pretty pale skin.

The weird thing is now that we have A) openness and B) employment for minorities in cartooning, suddenly there isn't a high demand for seemingly nondescript cartoons (but instead obvious representations of minorities in animated form, with no subterfuge).

You know, now that you mention it you made me think of "Foster's Home of Imaginary Friends" which actually has a nondescript but multi-racial cast in a way. Eduardo being Mexican-American, Wilt being black and Coco being female. Of course, that also comes into the issue of "Is it good to have ethnic characteristics visible ... but then again, is it bad that Eduardo can't speak well and Will plays basketball?" I have to think about this stuff.

Still, alternative-style shows geared towards the mature crowds love nothing more than to play up the stereotypes (since we're "all in on the joke", y'seee...)

Ah, yes. That double-edged sword. :-) On one had can let us increase dialogue on the other hand doesn't encourage us to move to something better. Of course, I still watch the ones I think are good. :-P

I'm suddenly way eager to go back and watch a number of Japanese cartoons of the late 80s early 90s; for some reason they were a little more open-minded then than now (e.g. Nadia, being a main character)

There's also Anthy and Akio as Indians, I think. And that FF VI guy. And um ... huh.

By the way, now I'm wondering if Miyazaki ever had anyone with dark skin in his movies. He seems like one of the most enlightened guys out there. (It was nice to hear he considered himself a feminist after Mamoru Oshii said the correct interpretation for Urusei Yatsura 2 was a sexist one. I haven't liked the film ever since.)

[47nite.livejournal.com]

Ethnicity is a better word, but as far as anthropology goes, "race" is a fully accepted term. Especially when you consider the definition:

"categorization of people based on perceived physical differences"

Case in point, our instructor showed us a photo of Condoleeza Rice with the president of Papua New Guinea. Almost anyone would instinctively assume they were both African-descended, but he is 100% a native of his home country. So in a way, 'race' can still be used, though erringly. :)

Oops. Totally forgot about Foster's. Shows how little I pay attention to anything I can't just watch on the Web TV. XD;

As far as Miyazaki works go, I honestly don't recall. :\ (one very interesting footnote to all this is Cowboy Bebop where they had a recurring 'show within the show' where in it a black actor would dress up like a cowboy and put on an outrageous Mexican accent, but then in the final episode we see him IRL talking like a normal guy. It wasn't integral to the plot in any way, but it showed that the Japanese writers did care to redeem him.) :P

[47nite.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I read your mini-review, that's why I brought up eyelashes in the first place. :Þ

[quietprofanity.livejournal.com]

FF VII I mean ... I've got to get myself a paid account and start editing comments.

[47nite.livejournal.com]

Final Fantasy 7 has Barret Wallace, who many people refuse to like because they think he's a negative stereotype.

I refuse to like Cloud and Sephiroth because they are poor representations of males. Boo. XD;.

Final Fantasy 6 was also noted for having a dark-skinned character in General Leo (his in-game portrait even depicts him as having Moorish features). He came off as gallant and thoroughly likable (which is probably why the only fanarts I've seen of him depict him as Caucasian) ¯~¯

[simargl-wings.livejournal.com]

Don't forget Rude!

[rabican.livejournal.com]

Wait, his portrait was Moorish? Seriously?

*googles*

Oh, you're totally right! When I was a kid, I thought he was supposed to be tan or something. I mean, he's blond, and his pixel-art makes him look just as white as the other characters.

Hunh. Learn something new every day. *makes up fanfic in head about racial prejudice in FF VI and Kefka being a jerk*

[big-wired.livejournal.com]

I can understand the getting angry bit because sometimes, well oftentimes, it's as though Marvel is doing everything it can to piss off fans, especially female fans, with the crap they pull down. Not just the Spidey Sperm killer, but the statue, Adah Hughes' response, Brian Michael Bendis with his rapey comment, the schlong-sucking atmosphere of his interview on newsarama, Tigra, and others.

DC has been relatively minor in doing stupid stuff like that, but they do slip up with Ed Benes being almost an arse/chest fetish as Frank Cho, and the systematic slaughtering of most lesbian characters they have.

As for arguing with the same people, well, WFA links to whoever discusses these issues, so so long as MTS and RMM keep ranting on like the control trolls they are, they'll still be linked.

If anything, it's good to occasionally check out the lunacy and hypocrisy they go on with, to compare yourself with and ensure you're not reaching their level and stay on the straight and narrow.

[quietprofanity.livejournal.com]

I dunno if it's a Marvel thing; I'm reading people's complaints about DC every day. (The Wedding, the Death of Big Barda, whenever Supergirl does anything, etc.) And yeah, I do think the anger is warranted and the debate is important (check a few posts back and I explain it in detail.)

And, like I said, I get why WFA links to them, but ... they're also the kind of people fandom_wank was invented for. Yeah, you can get a prompt for a good essay out of them, but does anyone really care except for the assurance that someone agrees with them? Then again, they seem to go after the same people again and again too. So around and around and around it goes ...

[shadzane.livejournal.com]

The one that jumps to mind is the Aardvark from "the Ant and the Aardvark", whose voice is a Jackie Mason imitation, so of course you think of him as Jewish, even though nothing else he does is remotely Jewish (I'm pretty sure ants aren't kosher)